Lord of the Rings
Nov. 21st, 2004 09:15 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
same_skyI am not the housekeeper I thought I'd be. I wish I had the energy to be touchy about it, but I just don't. It stresses me out when things are out of place and there's hair on the bathroom floor, but yet I don't seem to worry enough to actually do something about it right away. I've been hinting for weeks that I'd like to actually get something done in the evenings/on some day off/over the weekend, but you just never quite heard the followup "I've cleaned like a banshee" post, did you? UNTIL TODAY! M and I have been so productive today that I can't believe we're actually the same lazy people we were yesterday. The house is totally clean (okay, I'm out of Pledge so my dusting was a little sporadic, and I didn't clean the glassware in the bookcase or anything like that--do you think I've gone totally mad?--but it's close enough for horseshoes*), the laundry will be completely done as soon as the sheets are dry, and we watched all three Lord of the Rings movies again this weekend. This was vastly enjoyable but now it feels like a total letdown that we won't get a new installment next month. I also got eight assorted things marked off my to-do list, but I won't bother with the listing. I will add that I'm particularly proud that I closed our old bank account--I finally got around to opening the last two statements yesterday (yes, yes, financially irresponsible but we aren't even using the account so I didn't think of it) and found that they were now charging us $13 a month since our balance dropped below their account limits when we moved all the money to the new bank. That is just the sort of thing that we put off doing for so long that they charge us again, so I'm glad it's done with.
*There's an expression which might or might not be well-known to any native English speaker, and that is "close only counts in horseshoes." (Sometimes the speaker will add "or hand grenades, fyi.) I had to explain that one to M well before we even met in the real world. Imagine how awkward it was on his first visit when I explained that it didn't count if the washer landed on the box if it didn't fall into the hole. The game is one called Texas Horseshoes, and M was quick to point out that I had said many times that close DOES count in horseshoes, after all.. hard to worm my way out of THAT one.
We did, however, fail to have the planned book party. We both have planning to do on our next creative works of genius. Actually, a LOT of planning, in my case. I have an approximately six word summary in head, and one of those words is "a". I'm wondering if that one will even be feasible for me to write at this point, anyway, but I don't have any better ideas, and I kind of like the idea of writing a hybrid romance novel with elements of fantasy and magic woven in, which is what my idea is all about.
Oh, that reminds me. Do we have any LotR experts? I have a few (serious) burning questions. Some of these things are based on what the movies said (and, in a few cases, are about the movies themselves), so if the details are off, maybe that's why I don't understand a few things--it's been a couple of years since I read them.
Edited to add: I think maybe for some reason (?) this came across as if I had only seen the movies. I've read all three of the LotR books and The Hobbit, although not The Silmarillion. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been curious about any but the last Movie Specific questions... Also, I added numbers to the questions instead of just being in a list so they'll be easier to talk about.
*There's an expression which might or might not be well-known to any native English speaker, and that is "close only counts in horseshoes." (Sometimes the speaker will add "or hand grenades, fyi.) I had to explain that one to M well before we even met in the real world. Imagine how awkward it was on his first visit when I explained that it didn't count if the washer landed on the box if it didn't fall into the hole. The game is one called Texas Horseshoes, and M was quick to point out that I had said many times that close DOES count in horseshoes, after all.. hard to worm my way out of THAT one.
We did, however, fail to have the planned book party. We both have planning to do on our next creative works of genius. Actually, a LOT of planning, in my case. I have an approximately six word summary in head, and one of those words is "a". I'm wondering if that one will even be feasible for me to write at this point, anyway, but I don't have any better ideas, and I kind of like the idea of writing a hybrid romance novel with elements of fantasy and magic woven in, which is what my idea is all about.
Oh, that reminds me. Do we have any LotR experts? I have a few (serious) burning questions. Some of these things are based on what the movies said (and, in a few cases, are about the movies themselves), so if the details are off, maybe that's why I don't understand a few things--it's been a couple of years since I read them.
- Where did the Entish women go? That one has really bothered me for a long time. Why did they leave?
- If Gandalf has been around for three hundred lifetimes of men (9,000-21,000 years, being conservative--but didn't Aragorn rule for three hundred years or so? That would be 90,000 years.), why was he not aware of the whole one ring thing? Or, assuming that he was aware but not aware that Bilbo's ring was the big one, why wasn't he in the least bit curious as to what sort of magic ring he had found? How did he not connect the dots since clearly he had been alive during the last big battle, which was only 3,000 years ago.
- Lots of the animals in The Hobbit talked and stuff. What happened in the eighty years or so since Bilbo went off on his adventure to make all the animals stop talking? I'm aware that The Hobbit was originally meant more for children, but still. If the animals talked before, and were aware of what was going on in their world, why were the eagles the only ones to show up?
- Where are the dwarves?
- Okay, so the Elves are off to the Undying Lands, leaving the problems of Middle Earth to the men. Okay, fine. But.. this is a big one. If Sauron is going to destroy the world, and his power extends across the earth, which they mention many, many times... then how exactly will the Elves be safe somewhere else? Wouldn't it just be a matter of time until the battle was on their front doorstep, too?
- If Elrond was there the day that Isildur chose not to cast the ring into the fires of Mt. Doom, why the bloody hell didn't he just take the ring and do it himself, killing Isildur if necessary? (I don't remember if this happened in the books, so if it was a theatrical flourish, disregard the question.) If it is true, though.. how can you try to retain that smug superiority after not making that choice? Isn't it also kind of your fault that mankind is facing this big shebang now?
- Movie Specific: The Two Towers. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are scouring the countryside for Merry and Pippin. Aragorn literally has his ear to the ground, Legolas is always sniffing the air for danger. So, why didn't they hear the thousands of Rohirrim--Eomer's bunch..man, he's hot--until they almost ran over them? They jumped behind a rock to avoid being run over, for heaven's sake! This is, we think, the biggest screw-up in all three movies.
- Movie Specific: Why do the characters so often have the wrong reaction to an event? Pippin finds the seeing ball thing. Instead of thanking him profusely for spotting it, Gandalf glares at him and explains nothing. If he'd told him what it was, Pippin probably wouldn't have wanted to take a closer look. When Frodo is distraught because the ring is gone, Sam produces it and Frodo freaks out because Sam had taken the ring. WTF? And why, tell me why, do they give the ring to the one person who is physically impossible of remaining upright for more than ten seconds at a time? (Our Official LotR drinking game goes like this: Take a drink if: Frodo falls down, Frodo offers to give someone the ring, any hobbit says or does something indicating that his sexuality is in question or if Arwen bequeathes her immortality.)
- Movie Specific: Why is Theoden's beard green?
Edited to add: I think maybe for some reason (?) this came across as if I had only seen the movies. I've read all three of the LotR books and The Hobbit, although not The Silmarillion. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been curious about any but the last Movie Specific questions... Also, I added numbers to the questions instead of just being in a list so they'll be easier to talk about.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-11-21 06:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-21 06:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-21 06:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-21 07:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-21 06:44 pm (UTC)The Entish women. I don't think there is a clear answer to this question (hence the long search for them) but it is strongly hinted somewhere that their land was invaded during one of Sauron's earlier wars and they either fled, were killed, or turned into slaves and twisted beyond recognition by the power of the ring. My impression from the books is that the Ents deep down know their search is futile, but they are just not able to give it up.
Isildur, Elrond, Gandalf and the One Ring. I believe Peter Jackson has changed the story somewhat there. Isildur took the ring from Sauron's hand, but I don't think Elrond necessarily knew at that point how important it was to destroy it immediately. And then Isildur (and the whole party he travelled with) managed to get killed only a very short time after the big battle, so all traces of it disappeared. As for Gandalf, he didn't show up in Middle Earth until quite some time after Sauron's fall, so he didn't have any personal knowledge of what had happened.
Gandalf was actually sent from the Undying Lands to come help the people of Middle Earth against Sauron once it was evident he was not dead. The Undying Lands themselves are ruled by creatures much to powerful even for Sauron, so the Elves would indeed be safe there. Now you'd think that these powerful people could do more for Middle Earth than send Gandalf (and Saruman for that matter, but they refuse to get directly involved. All this is told in The Silmarillion.
That's all I can think of for the moment. I hope it helped a bit at least.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-21 07:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-22 06:49 am (UTC)Isildur, Elrond. Okay, I can buy that.. although I took a little offense in the movie to how superior Elrond was about when he didn't do anything to stop it. I don't remember how that was handled in the books, though.
The Silmarillion I haven't read. I was kind of hoping there would be some explanation there for a couple of these, so if the whole Gandalf thing is explained there, I can certainly accept that. I guess I can't really have an opinion on the last thing unless I read it but I'm none too fond of that part.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-22 03:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-21 07:14 pm (UTC)We never learn this. It's one of the great mysteries of Middle Earth.
Or, assuming that he was aware but not aware that Bilbo's ring was the big one, why wasn't he in the least bit curious as to what sort of magic ring he had found? How did he not connect the dots since clearly he had been alive during the last big battle, which was only 3,000 years ago.
(to be continued!)
In the books, it's made very clear that Gandalf had suspicions about Bilbo's ring from the start. This is played out in detail in the first book during the council hosted by Elrond after Frodo arrives in Rivendale. Each of the attendees have some bit of history or information that creates the big picture. This was glossed over quite a bit in the movie.
Lots of the animals in The Hobbit talked and stuff. What happened in the eighty years or so since Bilbo went off on his adventure to make all the animals stop talking? I'm aware that The Hobbit was originally meant more for children, but still. If the animals talked before, and were aware of what was going on in their world, why were the eagles the only ones to show up?
Hmmm... you mean like the dragons and what else? I'm thinking that horses, etc never talked in The Hobbit (certainly not in the book). But I think that there are two things going on here: some animals are magical -- those were GIANT eagles capable of carrying a man; and some folks (like Radagast the Brown, a wizard that I don't recall being in the first movie but he might have been) can communicate with animals. If you're referring to one of the Hobbit movies, well, they're not "canon" as the hardcore fans like to say ;-)
Where are the dwarves?
Which dwarves specifically are you looking for? In the LotR books, two show up for the council (see above): Gloin and (his son?) Gimli. The dwarves who ventured into the Misty Mountains (? the moutain where Gandalf falls with the balrog) with Balin were killed off by the orcs and/or the balrog. The rest of the dwarves (as so many of the different peoples of middle-earth are prone to do) keep to themselves for the most part.
Okay, so the Elves are off to the Undying Lands, leaving the problems of Middle Earth to the men. Okay, fine. But.. this is a big one. If Sauron is going to destroy the world, and his power extends across the earth, which they mention many, many times... then how exactly will the Elves be safe somewhere else? Wouldn't it just be a matter of time until the battle was on their front doorstep, too?
I'm pretty sure that the answer is "no", that the Undying Lands are off limits to Sauron (who was exiled from the Undying Lands perhaps) and that the answer is probably in the Silmarillion.
If Elrond was there the day that Isildur chose not to cast the ring into the fires of Mt. Doom, why the bloody hell didn't he just take the ring and do it himself, killing Isildur if necessary? (I don't remember if this happened in the books, so if it was a theatrical flourish, disregard the question.) If it is true, though.. how can you try to retain that smug superiority after not making that choice? Isn't it also kind of your fault that mankind is facing this big shebang now?
Good question. One explanation might be that Men and Elves at those time were pretty enstranged. In fact, until right before the Ring gets destroy, Men and Elves don't really do much of anything together for the most part. So I suppose that "ethically" or what have you, Elrond didn't find it acceptable to forcibly take the Ring from Isildur. Also, I would add that Elrond's obnoxious behavior/attitude in the movies differs a lot from the impression I got of him when reading the books. A lot of stuff like that (Faramir being tempted by the Ring, Elrond so adamatly opposed to Aragorn and Arwen's relationship and Aragorn's own hesitation regarding his destiny) were all mangled in the movie to create "drama" ;-)
no subject
Date: 2004-11-21 07:15 pm (UTC)Movie Specific: The Two Towers. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are scouring the countryside for Merry and Pippin. Aragorn literally has his ear to the ground, Legolas is always sniffing the air for danger. So, why didn't they hear the thousands of Rohirrim--Eomer's bunch..man, he's hot--until they almost ran over them? They jumped behind a rock to avoid being run over, for heaven's sake! This is, we think, the biggest screw-up in all three movies.
Excellent question! Better ask Peter Jackson about that one!
Movie Specific: Why do the characters so often have the wrong reaction to an event? Pippin finds the seeing ball thing. Instead of thanking him profusely for spotting it, Gandalf glares at him and explains nothing. If he'd told him what it was, Pippin probably wouldn't have wanted to take a closer look.
Yeah, in the book, it's made a little more clear... in fact, just about everything regarding the palantir is deleted from the movie but much of it looks like it will show up in the extended version (all three of which, I highly recommend!) Anyhow, in the book Gandalf explains that all his concentration is on Saruman at that point AND that it's not until later when Pippin looks into it that Gandalf is sure of what that shiny pretty sphere actually is :)
When Frodo is distraught because the ring is gone, Sam produces it and Frodo freaks out because Sam had taken the ring. WTF?
Again, it's more clear in the books that the Ring takes over the bearer and that losing the ring or seeing it in possession of another is maddening. In fact, just being in close proximity of the Ring for any length of time is dangerous as Boromir learned the hard way.
For fun, check out The Encylopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) sometime :)
Whew! That was fun :)
no subject
Date: 2004-11-22 07:18 am (UTC)I did think Gandalf knew about the palantirs in the book, though, but like I said.. it's been a while, and it's quite likely that I'm just seeing the movie scene where Saruman is looking into it on that one... but like I said, I was just thinking of the actual movie on this one, so the movie's interpretation of it, and the subsequent odd reaction, didn't make much sense to me--Gandalf should have been quite happy to have found it instead of letting it be found by someone else.
About the ring.. yeah, I remember that part very well, that it takes over the bearer's mind. The part I had a problem with was that Sam was trying to reach him the ring when he freaked out, so instead of just taking it immediately, which is what I sure would have done if the object of my obsession was dangling in front of me, he made a big deal about it and THEN finally took the ring after these drama-filled tense moments.
Anyway. Thanks for the responses! This has been interesting, especially since I.. well, I have opinions that I might write about sometime soon but are too long to go into right now. ;) And thanks for the link.. I'll check there. I was planning on looking some of them up (the Entwives, mainly) if I didn't get any answers but I hadn't yet gotten started on it.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-21 07:47 pm (UTC)In the books, it's made very clear that Gandalf had suspicions about Bilbo's ring from the start.
From the start as in, when Bilbo finds the ring? I don't really remember it that way.. he seems to piece it together quite late in the scheme of things. I guess that's kind of a lesser point than some of the others, though.. I mean, it's a little odd that Gandalf, who seems to know all sorts of things, doesn't figure something like that out.. but it's not really ODD.
Talking animals: Nope, I haven't seen any of the Hobbit movies. The eagles talked, and the wolves talked, and the large spiders they were attacked by, and so did Smaug, and basically anyone could understand them. That's why I think it's weird.
The dwarves I was referring to were the ones who didn't show up in any form other than Gimli for any of the big battles for Middle Earth. Again.. it just seems to be something that would affect many, and therefore they would have a part in the fighting.
I don't have time to post any more because it's past my bedtime already (forgot to check on the sheets so the bed is just now made.) Tomorrow!
no subject
Date: 2004-11-21 10:02 pm (UTC)From page 51 of The Fellowship of the Ring (new edition, with the movie "cover"):
"How long have you known all this?" asked Frodo again.
"Known?" said Gandalf. "I have known much that only the Wise know, Frodo. But if you mean 'known about this ring', well, I sill do not know, one might say. There is a last test to make. But I no longer doubt my guess."
"When did I first begin to guess?" he mused, searching back in memory. "let me see--it was the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of the Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, thought I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was--that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Biblbo's strange story of how he 'won' it, and I could not believe it..."
You can read more from there yourself :)
Oh, blondie bear says: Time for bed.
God natt!
no subject
Date: 2004-11-22 07:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-22 01:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-22 07:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-22 10:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-22 10:41 am (UTC)