Help.

[same_sky]

I won. I can't believe I won! Two times in one day! I know that sleeping issues are not interesting to anyone but the people losing sleep over it, but my kid is really, really hard to put to bed. REALLY HARD. Usually, if she fights me for a while, I give up and M comes back in and we watch a little TV while she unwinds a little more.Tonight, I had the patience of a saint, and I rocked her and sang to her and nursed her and rocked her and sang and snuggled and she finally finally finally fell asleep after almost two hours.

We really are going to need to start doing something about her sleeping trouble because this is just ridiculous. Honestly, I don't really mind that she wants to nurse to sleep at this point. I don't even mind that she needs to take thirty or sixty minutes to nod off. I do mind that she has started arching and struggling and kicking and screaming and talking. Oh, the talking. It's unbearable because it's cute, and she will reach up her hand to push on my nose and say "BEEP!" because she wants to make me laugh. Tonight, my favorite was "Hey! Hey! Elmo! Cheese!" The screaming is almost easier than the talking because the crying usually means that she may succumb to sleep soon, but the talking means she wants to get up and play.

The thing is, I feel sorry for her because I see her father in her every night. He has a history of trouble sleeping. He used to be much worse than he is now (before his wife pointed out that his advanced years might make it harder for him to drink caffeine in the evening like he used to...) but he still has a hard time falling asleep on any given night. She is so tired, most of the time, when she fights me over sleep. She will have her eyes closed part of the time. (In the last few days, she has started pulling away from nursing and asking to nurse.. I'm wondering if my mlik is dwindling due to her decreased nursing of late.) So anyway, on one hand, she has to learn to sleep by herself. On the other hand... geez, can you imagine how awful it must feel to have someone hold you down to try to make you sleep when you just don't feel like sleeping? I do it because I know it's in her best interest but... still.

Here's what the bedtime routine is. Every other night, we have bathtime at about eight. After it's over (or on the alternate nights), we dress her in her pajamas and bring her into the nearly dark living room, where we have the same light classical music playing softly. She nurses, and ideally falls asleep and continues to nurse for twenty minutes or something before pulling away and then I take her to her crib. She sleeps through the night (most of the time... she will occasionally go in spells where she wakes up to eat--I'm usually up with her for an hour or two for that, but she's usually pretty calm for that one.) and gets up between 7:30-8:30. Naptime is supposed to be at eleven. It takes me a long time to get her down for that, too. She'll sleep for a couple of hours, on average. If she fights, and then goes down later than usual, we're in trouble at night. If she sleeps until four, she will most likely not go down until at least eleven. When she misses her nap, she doesn't fight me at night, but she is way overtired all day. I really think she still needs the nap, and not just because I do. ;)

The pediatrician thinks it might be that she gets too tired and then can't fall asleep because of it, and suggested putting her to bed earlier or giving her a short catnap at around four. I don't think that a short nap will work for us because it is so very very hard to get her to nap, and also... I think it will make things worse, honestly. We used to put her to bed a little earlier, but then we decided that we had moved her bedtime up a little too much so we pushed it forward again... I think that was because she had started fighting, now that I think about it. She also suggested that we break the nursing to sleep habit, since she is treating me like a giant pacifier.

So, LJ, it's your turn to shine. There are some fantastic moms and dads on my friends list. Any words of wisdom on the sleep issue? Is there anything we're doing that we shouldn't be, or should be doing but aren't? I'm all ears. I'm not going to push a bunch of changes on her until we're all well and have the energy to spare for it, but I am going to have to figure out something because it is so not working for us anymore.

p.s. There was a lovely note on my desk from Evie when I finally got her to sleep. I wonder how she managed that? I didn't even know she could write.

Mommy,

I know that sometimes I don't act like it, but I think you're the best mommy ever. Daddy agrees with me, so you can't vote yourself down.

I love you, with hugs.

Evelyn
(Also, the singing is extra good.)

p.s.s. I married the right guy.

Comments

[carrieb.livejournal.com]

Oh man, Kisha. I so feel your pain. You know we had our fair share of sleep issues that we have finally settled. It only took three years.

First, you know her best. I only know what works for Erik. You asked for advice, so I'll say what I would do but I am not there so it might be totally worthless advice and that's ok with me. I saw the epic struggles you had with her. It was not easy.

I would say forget about an 11 am nap. I hang out in the mommy circles, at at 18 months that is a very early nap. Most people I know want their kid down at noon or 1. Wake her up by 3. As you say, you don't want that nap going till 4 or there will be hell to pay.

I agree with your doc. It doesn't make much sense to me, but I've found that an over-tired child is much harder to get to sleep. I always thought an earlier bedtime would make life even more hellish, but it really seemed to work for Erik. These days if we don't have him in his little bed by 8:30 we can forget about sleep. If we get lazy and allow him to dawdle past that time we are SCREWED for the night. It's weird how there's that sweet spot of sleep time. I think you're just going to have to play with it to find out what it is.

I don't know how you and M would feel about this, but maybe do cut out the nursing to sleep and let M handle getting her down. I can never get Erik to sleep. Mike has the magic touch and I have never been able to replicate it (until we day weaned Erik and suddenly the before bed nursing was something he desperately wanted and then everything changed). Does M have a magic touch?

Does the music really help? We used to play lullabies for Erik and we finally figured out that they weren't helping. They annoyed him and when we finally stopped with the lullabies he was easier to handle. At 18 months, our routine was bath sometimes, teeth brushing (boy oh boy was that fun at that age), a kiss from mommy, then daddy took him to the darkened bedroom and held him tight while singing. It was still not easy, but it worked. If I tried to put him down we just both got so frustrated that I gave up and he knew I would give up and he'd get to watch TV. Mike is so stubborn that Erik knew he was just going to have to relax and go to sleep because Mike WOULD win.

I have always had such a hard time sleeping that I feel sorry for little insommniac babies and toddlers. I am so glad I can finally take my sleeping pills again. I am also really relieved that Erik is finally falling asleep on his own and staying asleep through the night. I wouldn't wish insomnia on anyone.

I hope someone gives you some advice that helps. That little girl sure can be stubborn! It's exhausting for everyone.

[same-sky.livejournal.com]

Have you read the rest of the comments on this entry? 4/5 commenters specifically mentioned that this was all excellent advice. LJ thinks you are smart!

First of all. I appreciate you calling them "epic" struggles because every time I hear that word, I think of Logan telling Veronica that he thought they were epic. That was some good television right there. (And I might also like validation that the child is stubborn and she doesn't make it easy for me!) :)

Okay, geekdom aside...

I honestly don't know if the music helps or if she is indifferent. I don't *think* that it bugs her but I'll gladly give removing it a try. We didn't always do it, and last night the CD ran out before I was done anyway.

About the eleven o'clock nap. I'm more than willing to tinker with her nap schedule. The only reason her nap is at eleven, though, is that she started coming to me a few weeks ago as soon as Elmo went off, insisting on nursing and then falling asleep. It was like the easiest naps ever for a few glorious weeks. She used to wake up in the morning, be up for an hour and then take her first nap, so I just assumed that it was sort of her natural desire to go back to sleep earlier rather than later. Today I thought I'd sort of see what she wanted to do and she did the same thing, but started the fighting again after she nursed and snuggled sleepily into me for half an hour, so we got up and then tried again after lunch. I got her down at one, and I will wake her up at three if she's not awake.

I think we will have to give M a more active role in putting her to bed, but I think we will probably wait to do that for a little while longer until he is feeling healthy again, and we have had time to establish a game plan. I know it might help if I leave the house. I am seeing some late night trips to Walgreens in my future.

And geez, you expect me to go OUTSIDE? Are you out of your mind, woman? :)

[carrieb.livejournal.com]

That's the problem with these darling children. Just when you get something figured out that's working, they go and change their mind and want something different.

Good luck figuring it all out. It is SO HARD to let Daddy take over at night. I fretted and fretted and may have even shed a few tears. Well. . when E was 18 months old I fretted and shed a few tears. These days I am outta there with no regrets the second I finish reading three stories.

[carrieb.livejournal.com]

Also: now I want to go watch Veronica Mars, only I want to watch the NEW episodes. I want them right now! Only they don't exist. Stupid CW viewers who don't know the best thing that ever hit them.

And yes, woman, take her outside! She could play in the dirt!

Seriously, though, we always have a much harder time with Erik on the days he doesn't get much outside time.

[carrieb.livejournal.com]

One other thing, which I know you are going to love. . . take her outside and let her run. The fresh air works miracles in the sleep department.

[ms-jacket.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything Carrie said.

Ooh and that letter was waaaaaay sweet.

[same-sky.livejournal.com]

Carrie is smart. :)

Thanks!

[courtesy.livejournal.com]

I've watched this with Bijou and pretty well everything Carrie said applied to her too. Good luck! *hugs*

[same-sky.livejournal.com]

Thanks. :) *Hugs*

[ozswede.livejournal.com]

That man is a keeper :)

I see Carrie has covered just about everything. I do feel for you. I had problems getting my son to sleep and I know one does what seems in the cold light of day to be crazy things - as long as they work.

((HUGS))

[same-sky.livejournal.com]

He certainly is. :)

Sleeping is such a hard thing to deal with, I am finding! Funny how little I realized before I had her how important it was.

[ozswede.livejournal.com]

It's something you'd think would come naturally, but it just doesn't. And bedtime routines are very difficult to establish with some kids.

My daughter slept quite well from the beginning, though she was a head banger. In those days, nobody understood why and I was racked with guilt about it and fretted every day. She did outgrow it, but it took about 2 years and every night, it broke my heart.

My son was a little shit. He refused to sleep and screamed and carried on probably for the first two years. We had a double bed put in his room and took it in turns to sleep with him in shifts so we could get at least a few hours sleep each. I also watched a lot of late night tv with him, becoming quite the armchair expert on slalom and downhill ski-ing :)

But I remember trying to drive around till he slept, go for walks with him in the stroller etc. We rocked him, sang to him, told him stories... all to no avail. I think he was just a bundle of energy and could not stand to miss out on anything. He remained an early riser for years, bouncing out of bed, full of beans at 5am wanting me to help him build a railway line. Mind you as a teen, he finally learned the art of power sleeping 20 hours a day. Only 13 years too late...

[carrieb.livejournal.com]

He sounds so much like Erik. Everyone would always tell me to do the driving thing, but all that did was make him shriek for forty five minutes. Except the two times we went out driving at 4 am b/c he hadn't slept at all, all night and I kept thinking SURELY this child will sleep in a minute, but he didn't.

I swear I am going to record a baby screaming and use it as a wake-up call when Erik is a teenager.

[ozswede.livejournal.com]

I've often thought that Erik sounded like Francesco at the same age. I so recognise the frustration you feel at times as well as the boundless love. They are not easy children, but very rewarding (if you survive!)

[grain-damaged.livejournal.com]

I swear I am going to record a baby screaming and use it as a wake-up call when Erik is a teenager.

That's so mean! And funny! And I totally think I want to do that too... lol Of course I might never get grandkids that way... hum....

[(Anonymous)]

I feel your pain. Dirk was probably 4 before we got him to go to sleep by himself. No matter what routine you choose do it consistently every day. I also agree with Carrie's advice on the nap time. One to three was always Dirk's nap time when he was in daycare. As far as getting her to sleep on her own. I would break the nursing habit first. Then I would put her in her bed and you or M sit in a chair in the dark room with her and if she gets up lay her back down but don't communicate with her. This is basically letting her "cry it out" which I know your not a fan of, but it might be worth a try. Every kid is different but letting him cry it out is what finally worked for us. Good luck! Dominique

[same-sky.livejournal.com]

We might have to try crying it out in the end, but I hope not. It sounds awful. ;)

I'm trying one-to-three as a nap today.. hopefully it will work out for us.

I miss you!

[dbrus.livejournal.com]

We just started getting sleep at our house recently. Well, except for last night when he was up every hour for some reason. I finally learned to savor the alone, quiet time with him and not worry about how long it took. Soon they will be kicking us out of their rooms!

Also, I used to climb in the crib with Max. He had a stage like E where he would punch me, jump on me, pull my hair, hit me, etc. It passed.

[same-sky.livejournal.com]

I try to be zen about it too, but it does get hard when she is fighting me physically. :) Little nerd baby. Maybe one day it will pass..

[e11en.livejournal.com]

My younger sister's son used to talk himself to sleep. They would just leave him in his crib alone, with the monitor on so they could hear him, and let him just chat away to himself for half an hour before he would eventually fall asleep.

What happens if you just put her down and walk away? Does she scream and cry for you or just babble?

[same-sky.livejournal.com]

Yeah, she completely freaks out. I wrote this in my post originally and then deleted it. M did that pretty recently as a little joke. He took her in to get her pajamas and sat her in the crib while he picked them out. Then he told her goodnight, flipped the light off and shut the door, and then all hell broke loose. ;) She was quite upset about it. She was equally upset the one night that I got mad and put her in there for a minute.

I would love to listen to her talk herself to sleep. That sounds kind of awesome.

[grain-damaged.livejournal.com]

That Carrie is such a smart cookie... ;^)

I would try a few things.

1: No TV. I know. That sucks for you but it will let her tell you more clearly when she's tired. You said she was waiting for Elmo to go off before wanting her nap. If you kill the TV for a week it and then keep an eagle eye out for clues that she might need a nap. When they show up, put her down right away. That'd give you a good clear picture of her "sleep zones".

2. More physical activity and more *sunshine*. I know it's winter and it's cold and yucky. But I've found it works wonders - especially in the cold. It doesn't need to be a full blown trip to the park - you could just stroll around your yard. Rake up some leaves, play chase, plant some bulbs. Whatever, just being outside really helps tire kids out.

3. Less sugar. Look at all the foods you're giving her. Even some fruit can have a lot of sugar. Eliminate juice and unnecessary sweets all together. Increase her protein intake. I looked at the yogurt we were giving Sophie - 35gm of sugar in that little cup! We switched to one that was just 15 gm and add our own frozen blueberries. The change was huge! She wasn't cranky all morning and went down for her naps much easier. I also notice that any morning I'd make her pancakes it was the same thing - overtired and cranky. If I make her eggs and toast she does great and has a lot of long lasting energy.

4. Light - how does it effect her? Does she do better with dark, dark room? If you have a night light see if it shines on her or if it just lights up a little part of the room that would help her see if she woke up and had to get up. Sophie does better in a dark, dark room.

5. Nursing. Since your milk is slowly decreasing maybe give it up so she doesn't get in the habit of using you as a passy. This is really a personal decision that only she and you can make though, so you need to do what's right for the both of you.

6. Cry it out. I read above that that's your last resort. We did the cry it thing and it worked really well. Of course we're not cold heartless parents - We'd let her cry for usually 10 minutes. If she went any longer then that we'd go back in there and pick her up and love on her. ;^) Usually though she'd konk out in that time frame.