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same_skyI won. I can't believe I won! Two times in one day! I know that sleeping issues are not interesting to anyone but the people losing sleep over it, but my kid is really, really hard to put to bed. REALLY HARD. Usually, if she fights me for a while, I give up and M comes back in and we watch a little TV while she unwinds a little more.Tonight, I had the patience of a saint, and I rocked her and sang to her and nursed her and rocked her and sang and snuggled and she finally finally finally fell asleep after almost two hours.
We really are going to need to start doing something about her sleeping trouble because this is just ridiculous. Honestly, I don't really mind that she wants to nurse to sleep at this point. I don't even mind that she needs to take thirty or sixty minutes to nod off. I do mind that she has started arching and struggling and kicking and screaming and talking. Oh, the talking. It's unbearable because it's cute, and she will reach up her hand to push on my nose and say "BEEP!" because she wants to make me laugh. Tonight, my favorite was "Hey! Hey! Elmo! Cheese!" The screaming is almost easier than the talking because the crying usually means that she may succumb to sleep soon, but the talking means she wants to get up and play.
The thing is, I feel sorry for her because I see her father in her every night. He has a history of trouble sleeping. He used to be much worse than he is now (before his wife pointed out that his advanced years might make it harder for him to drink caffeine in the evening like he used to...) but he still has a hard time falling asleep on any given night. She is so tired, most of the time, when she fights me over sleep. She will have her eyes closed part of the time. (In the last few days, she has started pulling away from nursing and asking to nurse.. I'm wondering if my mlik is dwindling due to her decreased nursing of late.) So anyway, on one hand, she has to learn to sleep by herself. On the other hand... geez, can you imagine how awful it must feel to have someone hold you down to try to make you sleep when you just don't feel like sleeping? I do it because I know it's in her best interest but... still.
Here's what the bedtime routine is. Every other night, we have bathtime at about eight. After it's over (or on the alternate nights), we dress her in her pajamas and bring her into the nearly dark living room, where we have the same light classical music playing softly. She nurses, and ideally falls asleep and continues to nurse for twenty minutes or something before pulling away and then I take her to her crib. She sleeps through the night (most of the time... she will occasionally go in spells where she wakes up to eat--I'm usually up with her for an hour or two for that, but she's usually pretty calm for that one.) and gets up between 7:30-8:30. Naptime is supposed to be at eleven. It takes me a long time to get her down for that, too. She'll sleep for a couple of hours, on average. If she fights, and then goes down later than usual, we're in trouble at night. If she sleeps until four, she will most likely not go down until at least eleven. When she misses her nap, she doesn't fight me at night, but she is way overtired all day. I really think she still needs the nap, and not just because I do. ;)
The pediatrician thinks it might be that she gets too tired and then can't fall asleep because of it, and suggested putting her to bed earlier or giving her a short catnap at around four. I don't think that a short nap will work for us because it is so very very hard to get her to nap, and also... I think it will make things worse, honestly. We used to put her to bed a little earlier, but then we decided that we had moved her bedtime up a little too much so we pushed it forward again... I think that was because she had started fighting, now that I think about it. She also suggested that we break the nursing to sleep habit, since she is treating me like a giant pacifier.
So, LJ, it's your turn to shine. There are some fantastic moms and dads on my friends list. Any words of wisdom on the sleep issue? Is there anything we're doing that we shouldn't be, or should be doing but aren't? I'm all ears. I'm not going to push a bunch of changes on her until we're all well and have the energy to spare for it, but I am going to have to figure out something because it is so not working for us anymore.
p.s. There was a lovely note on my desk from Evie when I finally got her to sleep. I wonder how she managed that? I didn't even know she could write.
We really are going to need to start doing something about her sleeping trouble because this is just ridiculous. Honestly, I don't really mind that she wants to nurse to sleep at this point. I don't even mind that she needs to take thirty or sixty minutes to nod off. I do mind that she has started arching and struggling and kicking and screaming and talking. Oh, the talking. It's unbearable because it's cute, and she will reach up her hand to push on my nose and say "BEEP!" because she wants to make me laugh. Tonight, my favorite was "Hey! Hey! Elmo! Cheese!" The screaming is almost easier than the talking because the crying usually means that she may succumb to sleep soon, but the talking means she wants to get up and play.
The thing is, I feel sorry for her because I see her father in her every night. He has a history of trouble sleeping. He used to be much worse than he is now (before his wife pointed out that his advanced years might make it harder for him to drink caffeine in the evening like he used to...) but he still has a hard time falling asleep on any given night. She is so tired, most of the time, when she fights me over sleep. She will have her eyes closed part of the time. (In the last few days, she has started pulling away from nursing and asking to nurse.. I'm wondering if my mlik is dwindling due to her decreased nursing of late.) So anyway, on one hand, she has to learn to sleep by herself. On the other hand... geez, can you imagine how awful it must feel to have someone hold you down to try to make you sleep when you just don't feel like sleeping? I do it because I know it's in her best interest but... still.
Here's what the bedtime routine is. Every other night, we have bathtime at about eight. After it's over (or on the alternate nights), we dress her in her pajamas and bring her into the nearly dark living room, where we have the same light classical music playing softly. She nurses, and ideally falls asleep and continues to nurse for twenty minutes or something before pulling away and then I take her to her crib. She sleeps through the night (most of the time... she will occasionally go in spells where she wakes up to eat--I'm usually up with her for an hour or two for that, but she's usually pretty calm for that one.) and gets up between 7:30-8:30. Naptime is supposed to be at eleven. It takes me a long time to get her down for that, too. She'll sleep for a couple of hours, on average. If she fights, and then goes down later than usual, we're in trouble at night. If she sleeps until four, she will most likely not go down until at least eleven. When she misses her nap, she doesn't fight me at night, but she is way overtired all day. I really think she still needs the nap, and not just because I do. ;)
The pediatrician thinks it might be that she gets too tired and then can't fall asleep because of it, and suggested putting her to bed earlier or giving her a short catnap at around four. I don't think that a short nap will work for us because it is so very very hard to get her to nap, and also... I think it will make things worse, honestly. We used to put her to bed a little earlier, but then we decided that we had moved her bedtime up a little too much so we pushed it forward again... I think that was because she had started fighting, now that I think about it. She also suggested that we break the nursing to sleep habit, since she is treating me like a giant pacifier.
So, LJ, it's your turn to shine. There are some fantastic moms and dads on my friends list. Any words of wisdom on the sleep issue? Is there anything we're doing that we shouldn't be, or should be doing but aren't? I'm all ears. I'm not going to push a bunch of changes on her until we're all well and have the energy to spare for it, but I am going to have to figure out something because it is so not working for us anymore.
p.s. There was a lovely note on my desk from Evie when I finally got her to sleep. I wonder how she managed that? I didn't even know she could write.
Mommy,p.s.s. I married the right guy.
I know that sometimes I don't act like it, but I think you're the best mommy ever. Daddy agrees with me, so you can't vote yourself down.
I love you, with hugs.
Evelyn
(Also, the singing is extra good.)
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no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 03:42 am (UTC)First, you know her best. I only know what works for Erik. You asked for advice, so I'll say what I would do but I am not there so it might be totally worthless advice and that's ok with me. I saw the epic struggles you had with her. It was not easy.
I would say forget about an 11 am nap. I hang out in the mommy circles, at at 18 months that is a very early nap. Most people I know want their kid down at noon or 1. Wake her up by 3. As you say, you don't want that nap going till 4 or there will be hell to pay.
I agree with your doc. It doesn't make much sense to me, but I've found that an over-tired child is much harder to get to sleep. I always thought an earlier bedtime would make life even more hellish, but it really seemed to work for Erik. These days if we don't have him in his little bed by 8:30 we can forget about sleep. If we get lazy and allow him to dawdle past that time we are SCREWED for the night. It's weird how there's that sweet spot of sleep time. I think you're just going to have to play with it to find out what it is.
I don't know how you and M would feel about this, but maybe do cut out the nursing to sleep and let M handle getting her down. I can never get Erik to sleep. Mike has the magic touch and I have never been able to replicate it (until we day weaned Erik and suddenly the before bed nursing was something he desperately wanted and then everything changed). Does M have a magic touch?
Does the music really help? We used to play lullabies for Erik and we finally figured out that they weren't helping. They annoyed him and when we finally stopped with the lullabies he was easier to handle. At 18 months, our routine was bath sometimes, teeth brushing (boy oh boy was that fun at that age), a kiss from mommy, then daddy took him to the darkened bedroom and held him tight while singing. It was still not easy, but it worked. If I tried to put him down we just both got so frustrated that I gave up and he knew I would give up and he'd get to watch TV. Mike is so stubborn that Erik knew he was just going to have to relax and go to sleep because Mike WOULD win.
I have always had such a hard time sleeping that I feel sorry for little insommniac babies and toddlers. I am so glad I can finally take my sleeping pills again. I am also really relieved that Erik is finally falling asleep on his own and staying asleep through the night. I wouldn't wish insomnia on anyone.
I hope someone gives you some advice that helps. That little girl sure can be stubborn! It's exhausting for everyone.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 07:36 pm (UTC)First of all. I appreciate you calling them "epic" struggles because every time I hear that word, I think of Logan telling Veronica that he thought they were epic. That was some good television right there. (And I might also like validation that the child is stubborn and she doesn't make it easy for me!) :)
Okay, geekdom aside...
I honestly don't know if the music helps or if she is indifferent. I don't *think* that it bugs her but I'll gladly give removing it a try. We didn't always do it, and last night the CD ran out before I was done anyway.
About the eleven o'clock nap. I'm more than willing to tinker with her nap schedule. The only reason her nap is at eleven, though, is that she started coming to me a few weeks ago as soon as Elmo went off, insisting on nursing and then falling asleep. It was like the easiest naps ever for a few glorious weeks. She used to wake up in the morning, be up for an hour and then take her first nap, so I just assumed that it was sort of her natural desire to go back to sleep earlier rather than later. Today I thought I'd sort of see what she wanted to do and she did the same thing, but started the fighting again after she nursed and snuggled sleepily into me for half an hour, so we got up and then tried again after lunch. I got her down at one, and I will wake her up at three if she's not awake.
I think we will have to give M a more active role in putting her to bed, but I think we will probably wait to do that for a little while longer until he is feeling healthy again, and we have had time to establish a game plan. I know it might help if I leave the house. I am seeing some late night trips to Walgreens in my future.
And geez, you expect me to go OUTSIDE? Are you out of your mind, woman? :)
no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 08:47 pm (UTC)Good luck figuring it all out. It is SO HARD to let Daddy take over at night. I fretted and fretted and may have even shed a few tears. Well. . when E was 18 months old I fretted and shed a few tears. These days I am outta there with no regrets the second I finish reading three stories.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-20 09:10 pm (UTC)And yes, woman, take her outside! She could play in the dirt!
Seriously, though, we always have a much harder time with Erik on the days he doesn't get much outside time.